Awesome: U.S. Catholic Bishops Slam Obama’s “Direct Attack On Religion” As “Literally Unconscionable”…
It takes a lot to get the Catholic Church fired up, but apparently Obama has succeeded at doing it.
WASHINGTON — The Catholic Bishops of the United States called “literally unconscionable” a decision by the Obama Administration to continue to demand that sterilization, abortifacients and contraception be included in virtually all health plans. Today’s announcement means that this mandate and its very narrow exemption will not change at all; instead there will only be a delay in enforcement against some employers.
“In effect, the president is saying we have a year to figure out how to violate our consciences,” said Cardinal-designate Timothy M. Dolan, archbishop of New York and president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
The cardinal-designate continued, “To force American citizens to choose between violating their consciences and forgoing their healthcare is literally unconscionable. It is as much an attack on access to health care as on religious freedom. Historically this represents a challenge and a compromise of our religious liberty.”
The HHS rule requires that sterilization and contraception — including controversial abortifacients — be included among “preventive services” coverage in almost every healthcare plan available to Americans. “The government should not force Americans to act as if pregnancy is a disease to be prevented at all costs,” added Cardinal-designate Dolan.
At issue, the U.S. bishops and other religious leaders insist, is the survival of a cornerstone constitutionally protected freedom that ensures respect for the conscience of Catholics and all other Americans.
“This is nothing less than a direct attack on religion and First Amendment rights,” said Franciscan Sister Jane Marie Klein, chairperson of the board at Franciscan Alliance, Inc., a system of 13 Catholic hospitals. “I have hundreds of employees who will be upset and confused by this edict. I cannot understand it at all.”
“The Obama administration has now drawn an unprecedented line in the sand,” he said. “The Catholic bishops are committed to working with our fellow Americans to reform the law and change this unjust regulation. We will continue to study all the implications of this troubling decision.”
Posted by ZIP on Friday, January 20, 2012, at 6:00 pm | 
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About damn time.
Why Catholics ever backed this abortion fanatic I’ll never understand.
☏
it’s for you, Mr. Obama
Just the beginning of the campaign against Christians by this administration, a shot across the bow.
We’ll need to buy about 25M in votes to offset the Catholics – how about another green energy money pit?
Theoretically, all Catholics will now be prohibited by these Bishops from voting for Obama.
Great, now excommunicate evil ass Pelosi.
The Catholic Church will now find out that hedonism, entitlement, and welfare are the new religion of Hispanics, Italians and Irish.
Attention all Christian denominations, Hussein ain’t that into you, commies hate competition. Vote accordingly.
Like he gives a flying fuck what you believe or care…
Of course he attacks Christians. Because olla wills it.
I remember how so many priests and nuns were so excited for Obamacare and how fair it was that EVERYONE would get free healthcare. How’s that working for ya’ now?
I believe there is a religion that Obama cares about. I don’t believe it is Christianity.
@Jimco
I second that.
How the hell is an abortifacient “preventive”?
Step up and stand them down…you are on the menu—evil is on the march
Once again Newt is right, and he used the terms of the Left against them when he said, “this in nothing more than ‘secular bigotry’. A perfect statement.
He used their own lying, duplicitous verbiage against them.
And yet muslims are exempt from paying for obamacare since it is against their religion.
So everyone has to buy healthcare insurance and virtually all healthcare insurance plans must cover sterilization, abortifacients and contraception.
This is the nail in Obamacare’s coffin, to be pounded in 5-4 by the Supreme Court.
What has Obama done for America lately!
#1. Awarded $1.2 Billion to Black Farmers. (“This agreement will provide overdue relief and justice to African American farmers, and bring us closer to the ideals of freedom and equality that this country was founded on, Obama said in statement”) (many blacks that received this money never farmed!)
#2. Expanded Funding for HBCUs. In February of this year, President Obama signed an executive order increasing funding for Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) to $850 million over the next 10 years. The funding is being administered through the White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities
#3. Signed The Crack Cocaine Bill (Fair Sentencing Act) Crack users are disproportionately sentenced to longer jail terms than those who use powder. This unfair sentencing practice punished African Americans more severely than their white counterparts. With the signing of the Fair Sentencing Act, though, President Obama narrowed that disparity significantly.
#4. Passed Health Care Reform (Affordable Care Act) More than 19 percent of African Americans do not have health care, according to TheRoot. When the highly debated health care reform bill was signed into law in March of 2010, millions of African Americans benefited.
#5 Created The Civil Rights Division Of The Justice Department The U.S. Justice Department is leading one of the most aggressive defenses of civil rights in recent memory. Whether it is clamping down on Arizona for its bias against Latinos or fighting unjust state voter ID laws, this Justice Department has been fully engaged in fighting for the rights of all minorities. When President Obama chose Eric Holder to lead the department, he picked a true champion of civil rights. For a rundown of how powerful the Civil Rights Division has become, check out this article by TheRoot.
You are correct Evie. Also, he promised to make it easier for muslims to pay zakat…charity….as it is one of their principles. Christian principles be damned though. God will judge us for this. He. Must. Be. Stopped.
Barack Obama’s Muslim Childhood
By Daniel Pipes
http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | As Barack Obama’s candidacy comes under increasing scrutiny, his account of his religious upbringing deserves careful attention for what it tells us about the candidate’s integrity.
Obama asserted in December, “I’ve always been a Christian,” and he has adamantly denied ever having been a Muslim. “The only connection I’ve had to Islam is that my grandfather on my father’s side came from that country [Kenya]. But I’ve never practiced Islam.” In February, he claimed: “I have never been a Muslim. � other than my name and the fact that I lived in a populous Muslim country for 4 years when I was a child [Indonesia, 1967-71] I have very little connection to the Islamic religion.”
“Always” and “never” leave little room for equivocation. But many biographical facts, culled mainly from the American press, suggest that, when growing up, the Democratic candidate for president both saw himself and was seen as a Muslim.
Obama’s Kenyan birth father: In Islam, religion passes from the father to the child. Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. (1936-1982) was a Muslim who named his boy Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. Only Muslim children are named “Hussein”.
Obama’s Indonesian family: His stepfather, Lolo Soetoro, was also a Muslim. In fact, as Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro-Ng explained to Jodi Kantor of the New York Times: “My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim.” An Indonesian publication, the Banjarmasin Post reports a former classmate, Rony Amir, recalling that “All the relatives of Barry’s father were very devout Muslims.”
The Catholic school: Nedra Pickler of the Associated Press reports that “documents showed he enrolled as a Muslim” while at a Catholic school during first through third grades. Kim Barker of the Chicago Tribune confirms that Obama was “listed as a Muslim on the registration form for the Catholic school.” A blogger who goes by “An American Expat in Southeast Asia” found that “Barack Hussein Obama was registered under the name ‘Barry Soetoro’ serial number 203 and entered the Franciscan Asisi Primary School on 1 January 1968 and sat in class 1B. � Barry’s religion was listed as Islam.”
The public school: Paul Watson of the Los Angeles Times learned from Indonesians familiar with Obama when he lived in Jakarta that he “was registered by his family as a Muslim at both schools he attended.” Haroon Siddiqui of the Toronto Star visited the Jakarta public school Obama attended and found that “Three of his teachers have said he was enrolled as a Muslim.” Although Siddiqui cautions that “With the school records missing, eaten by bugs, one has to rely on people’s shifting memories,” he cites only one retired teacher, Tine Hahiyari, retracting her earlier certainty about Obama’s being registered as a Muslim.
Koran class: In his autobiography, Dreams of My Father, Obama relates how he got into trouble for making faces during Koranic studies, thereby revealing he was a Muslim, for Indonesian students in his day attended religious classes according to their faith. Indeed, Obama still retains knowledge from that class: Nicholas D. Kristof of the New York Times, reports that Obama “recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them [to Kristof] with a first-rate accent.”
Mosque attendance: Obama’s half-sister recalled that the family attended the mosque “for big communal events.” Watson learned from childhood friends that “Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque.” Barker found that “Obama occasionally followed his stepfather to the mosque for Friday prayers.” One Indonesia friend, Zulfin Adi, states that Obama “was Muslim. He went to the mosque. I remember him wearing a sarong” (a garment associated with Muslims).
Piety: Obama himself says that while living in Indonesia, a Muslim country, he “didn’t practice [Islam],” implicitly acknowledging a Muslim identity. Indonesians differ in their memories of him. One, Rony Amir, describes Obama as “previously quite religious in Islam.”
Obama’s having been born and raised a Muslim and having left the faith to become a Christian make him neither more nor less qualified to become president of the United States. But if he was born and raised a Muslim and is now hiding that fact, this points to a major deceit, a fundamental misrepresentation about himself that has profound implications about his character and his suitability as president.
That was only Obama’s opening shot.
There is much more to come. It is great to see the U.S.Conference of Catholic Bishops show some steel.
What about the Kennedys, Dodd, Palosi… All Catholic support abortion.
Silence.
Bet the Irish Priest support Kennedy for Congress.
Hypocrites.
Yes I’m catholic
We may be witnessing the swing of support for Bam from the Catholic community to one of the other candidates. Hmmm, things are about to become very interesting Sherlock. This will filter out, from the Bishops, to all congregations and become a groundswell I hope. Why they ever supported this man, with the baggage he carried, is beyond me.
I can’t wait to hear my pastor at tomorrow night’s mass. He doesn’t mince words when it comes to Dumb Ass and the destruction he has caused. Me thinks Fr. K. will get yet another standing ovation from the parishoners.
Levin just did a major rant against this dictate by this asshole. He made special mention of the “separation of church and state” business. Crickets coming from the O administration on that point.
so what ? Talk is cheap–when are they going kick Nancy Pelosi and John Kerry out of the Church…
“Catholic Bishops on Obamacare Reg: ‘Unprecedented Attack on Religious Liberty,’ Even Jesus Wouldn’t Qualify as ‘Religious’ ”
by Stephen Frank – September 27, 2011
http://capoliticalnews.com/2011/09/27/catholic-bishops-on-obamacare-reg-unprecedented-attack-on-religious-liberty-even-jesus-wouldnt-qualify-as-religious/
Dr. Alan Keyes – Religious Freedom – December 13, 2011
http://vimeo.com/33700719
Debating Natural Law vs. Legal Positivism – September 27, 2000
Alan Keyes KO defense of Natural Law – 2 HR Debate
http://mrctv.org/videos/debating-natural-law-vs-legal-positivism
The Kenyan and Eric the Red just got a major slap down from SCOTUS on religious freedom, looks like they are headed for a TKO in round 2.
The Kenyan is an islamist and islam is not a religion, it is marxism/fascism. There is no allah.
Muslims get many various types of waivers; Christians get demands for abortion care. Can’t Obummer be stopped?
.
If you guys help vote him back in, get ready.
Your Church will be demonized more then you can even imagine.
1) The Catholic Church has advised that it is unconscionable to vote for a candidate who is not pro-life.
2) Every Catholic in the USA that voted for obowmao* self-excommunicated.
l’il barry remains the only idiot to speak out on the Illinois senate floor against BAIPA.
Catholics, not the Nancy Pelosi kind, did not support Obama. Sin is what it is really all about. No one says that. It is true. Obama will not get the Catholic vote; at least the Catholics , like myself. I do not beleive God will allow it.
ABO 2012
@ John B
I do not beleive you.
America’s problem!
Now that everyone is over the “White Guilt” and we gave the “Knee-Gro” a chance to prove himself hope & change!
What is the quickest way to remove “spanky” from the White House?
And lets not forget “Aunt Ester”!
Catholics are like a turd that won’t flush or a ship that won’t sink. Somebody ought to sink their ship.
Christ is the truth and the light………. the devil is loose in the world, fight back. Fight evil. Stand up Christians.
@Phillip
Relax, you don’t have to be a dick every day of your life.
Speaking of turds, hey look, Phillip left a comment.
If a priest or minister will not marry a gay couple that will be discrimination and against the law. If a Catholic or other agency will not place a child with a gay couple, that will be discriminaton and against the law. Please vote in 2012.
It’s about time these liberal Bishops did something besides praising this worthless scum. For three years there hasn’t been a peep out of this bunch. And these are the ones that cannot understand why the people are leaving the church. Put GOD back in the church and take the false idols out of it.
Catholics will again vote for the “Womb Scraper-in-Chief”.
Hell…most Jews did and will, again. Many will do it to
dodge the label of “racist”. This punk is floating in his
sea of incompetence…..and EVERYBODY want to throw
him a life-saver. He’s like the Cap’n of the Titanic….but
these spineless ninnies want him taken off HIS sinking
ship FIRST… in the executive lifeboat! ….first in line for affirma-
tive action….first in line for universal forgiveness and re-election.
My, but this boy is “lucky”.
Catholic? The anti-Christ itself.
After the Socialists whacked 7,000 Catholic Priests in the Red Terror of 1936…you would think the Catholic Church would have been a little more alert to dangers and insidious nature of Socialists.
As a Palin lovin’ Catholic, I can only say that whatever the ramifications of this debacle are, the Catholic Bishops certainly deserve it. And all those Catholic morons in Pennsylvania, California, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Massachusetts who voted for Obama and continue to give us radical Senators and grant Asylum to illegal Aliens….you all deserve exactly what the statists give you.
Frankly the Catholic Church is the Vanguard of Socialism…they should not be surprised that 40 years of unchecked Socialism within the church has come to its logical conclusion….
The state doesn’t like competition…
Thats becuase the socialists,communists consiter all forms of reelgion as a cancer Thats why communism is so evil
Hey, Phillip. Say hello to Satan for me.
Don’t worry, you’ll know exactly what I mean one day.
- pro-catholic protestant
The communists have done enormous harm to the Catholic church.
They’ve been working at destroying the Catholic church for nearly a century now and much of what they set out to accomplish has been achieved.
Many Catholics believe in something called Christian Socialism; that is the thin end of the wedge used to subvert traditional Christian values and move the church in the direction of communism.
An article in Christian Order magazine (November 2000) recounts how Dodd and her associate, Douglas Hyde, revealed the plan for communist subversion of the Church:
Ex-Communist and celebrated convert Douglas Hyde revealed long ago that in the 1930s the Communist leadership issued a worldwide directive about infiltrating the Catholic Church. While in the early 1950s, Mrs. Bella Dodd was also providing detailed explanations of the Communist subversion of the Church. Speaking as a former high ranking official of the American Communist Party, Mrs. Dodd said: “In the 1930s we put eleven hundred men into the priesthood in order to destroy the Church from within.” The idea was for these men to be ordained and progress to positions of influence and authority as Monsignors and Bishops. A dozen years before Vatican II she stated that: “Right now they are in the highest places in the Church” — where they were working to bring about change in order to weaken the Church’s effectiveness against Communism. She also said that these changes would be so drastic that “you will not recognise the Catholic Church.”
…
“I listened to that woman for four hours and she had my hair standing on end. Everything she said has been fulfilled to the letter. You would think she was the world’s greatest prophet, but she was no prophet. She was merely exposing the step-by-step battle plan of Communist subversion of the Catholic Church. She explained that of all the world’s religions, the Catholic Church was the only one feared by the Communists, for it was its only effective opponent. The whole idea was to destroy, not the institution of the Church, but rather the Faith of the people, and even use the institution of the Church, if possible, to destroy the Faith through the promotion of a pseudo-religion: something that resembled Catholicism but was not the real thing. Once the Faith was destroyed, she explained that there would be a guilt complex introduced into the Church…. to label the ‘Church of the past’ as being oppressive, authoritarian, full of prejudices, arrogant in claiming to be the sole possessor of truth, and responsible for the divisions of religious bodies throughout the centuries. This would be necessary in order to shame Church leaders into an ‘openness to the world,’ and to a more flexible attitude toward all religions and philosophies. The Communists would then exploit this openness in order to undermine the Church.”
http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp
I’m convinced that many of the scandals in the Catholic church, eg. pedophile priests, are a direct result of communist infiltration and propaganda.
And yet those self-so-called catholics, Sebelius and Pelosi, are bragging about this “free birth control” and praising it’s merits, so they refer to ‘it’.
The Church needs to be ALSO condemning these individuals who claim to represent the faith or at least to practice it, yet who are such heathens, such dreadful liars. And let’s include Chris Dodd, the Kennedys and so many more like them who utterly despise the Church theology yet claim to be so righteous as participants in it: liars, all.
Mike_W says:
January 21, 2012 at 3:37 am
http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp
I’m convinced that many of the scandals in the Catholic church, eg. pedophile priests, are a direct result of communist infiltration and propaganda.
————————————————————-
I agree with you, Mike_W. Part of that plan of infiltration of the Church was the infiltration of Catholic seminaries, too, by homosexuals and who then went about encouraging more of them to enroll and discouraging qualified heterosexual applicants. Thus emerged the pedophile disaster as also pro-homosexual rationalizations on issues. It’s discouraged many from remaining in the Church and that was the motive by those who infiltrated the Church.
Thank you Lord. You gave us BHO. Glad to see the Catholic Church getting riled up over something.
succotash says:
January 20, 2012 at 6:25 pm
I remember how so many priests and nuns were so excited for Obamacare and how fair it was that EVERYONE would get free healthcare. How’s that working for ya’ now?
———————————————————————
I recall that from the last election, too — how alleged Catholics were pushing an Obama election and when confronted with his real views, they ignored the truth about the man in preference for what they expected as to ‘free healthcare for all’ — which of course was irrational as it was corrupt because much of what Obama believes is contrary, directly, to Catholic theology, yet these so-called Catholics all pushed his election.
I think it has more to do with urban decay — people from urban areas that are Socialist and needy and expect government parenting but who also have this “cultural catholic” association: they’re catholics because their parents were but they attend without too much fidelity (if any) to the theology involved. It’s become a sort of social club movement to people like that who show up at church and for ceremonies but who then go about doing whatever, most of which is oppositional to what the church asks and teaches.
People such as that are Leftwingers, Democrats, socialists, even communists as some have identified here, some even atheist, yet they are fond of “the ceremony” of the church, and they don’t vote according to a Catholic conscience so much as they vote and push for a Socialist government.
I call them Catholics In Name Only (“CINO”). Certainly that describes Nancy Pelosi, Sebelius, Dodd, so many others like them among the Democrats.
vector 1960 says:
January 20, 2012 at 9:23 pm
Catholics, not the Nancy Pelosi kind, did not support Obama. Sin is what it is really all about. No one says that. It is true. Obama will not get the Catholic vote; at least the Catholics , like myself. I do not beleive God will allow it.
ABO 2012
————————————–
I agree with you, vector. I complained after the election to a friend of mine who is in a Catholic religious order, as to why and how I’d read many so-called catholics voted for Obama — she’s a Liberal despite being in an Order but she responded that she didn’t vote for him though she was a Democrat.
Even being a Democrat for a Catholic is a distortion of the commitment to the Church because the Democratic Party’s platform contains several pledges that are sin in the views of the Church and in Christianity — so even being a Democrat for a Catholic, for a Christian, is to support and seek the proliferation of sin when viewed through one’s faith principles.
I don’t understand how some people can claim to be Christian, be Catholic, and even entertain voting for any Democrat, much moreso registering in the party.
@Mike_W & @ Jim
thanks
obongo’s only stop in el salvador
President Obama to visit tomb of Archbishop Romero
http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=17889
Even though the Vatican under Pope John Paul II did not view Romero’s closeness to liberation theology favorably (nor the manner in which he condemned military, government, and guerrilla actions), it nonetheless condemned[citation needed] the assassination as a murder and a direct sacrilege, even while not formally recognizing him as a martyr.
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Benedict XVI), who was prefect of the CDF (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) at the time when the Instructions were issued, published his own personal criticism of the movement in 1985.[15] In this document Ratzinger claims that in certain forms of liberation theology, the meaning of basic theological terms is changed – e.g. terms such as “hope”, “love”, and “salvation” are assigned a Marxist interpretation in terms of “class struggle”.
A major player in the formation of liberation theology was CELAM, the Latin American Episcopal Conference.[15] Created in 1955 in Rio de Janeiro (Brazil)
Liberation theology
Liberation theology[1] is a Christian movement in political theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in terms of a liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions. It has been described by proponents as “an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor’s suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor”,[2] and by detractors as Christianized Marxism.[3]
Although liberation theology has grown into an international and inter-denominational movement, it began as a movement within the Roman Catholic church in Latin America in the 1950s–1960s. Liberation theology arose principally as a moral reaction to the poverty caused by social injustice in that region. The term was coined in 1971 by the Peruvian priest Gustavo Gutiérrez, who wrote one of the movement’s most famous books, A Theology of Liberation. Other noted exponents are Leonardo Boff of Brazil, Jon Sobrino of El Salvador, and Juan Luis Segundo of Uruguay.[4][5][6]
The influence of liberation theology diminished after proponents were accused of using “Marxist concepts” leading to admonishment by the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) in 1984 and 1986. The Vatican criticized certain strains of liberation theology for focusing on institutionalized or systemic sin, apparently to the exclusion of individual offenders/offences; and for allegedly misidentifying Catholic Church hierarchy in S. America as members of same privileged class that had long been oppressing indigenous populations since the arrival of Pizarro onward.[
Evie says: And yet muslims are exempt from paying for obamacare since it is against their religion.
NoThreat2U says: You are correct Evie. Also, he promised to make it easier for muslims to pay zakat…charity….as it is one of their principles. Christian principles be damned though. God will judge us for this. He. Must. Be. Stopped.
just-saying says: Muslims get many various types of waivers; Christians get demands for abortion care. Can’t Obummer be stopped?
QUESTION: Is it really Christian to provoke hatred of another religion? Or to utter plain lies that some religion is favored? Why are some of us so hateful?
@Mike_W,
interesting link: [http://www.fatimaperspectives.com]
Fatima was Mohammed’s daughter. She is to have a secret whispered into her ear from her dying father that was to be a prophecy of some kind.. perhaps of a messianic shia construct.
The town, Fatima, Portugal was inhabited largely by a Muslim population, and hence the name. The kids who witnessed the apparition were ethnically as per above, and purportedly received some sort of apocalyptic message.. thus the Roman Catholic Marian: “Lady of Fatima”
anyhow, it sounds far-fetched.. but it’s interesting and there appears to be something to it.
@christfair
QUESTION: Is it really beyond your comprehension or is it simply that you are as big a purveyor of lies as the obongo administration?
QUESTION: As an aetheist, what are the implications of you posting with ‘Christ’ as part of your post ID? Did you enjoy a little perverse giggle about your ‘edginess’?
QUESTION: Why are you so hateful towards people of faith as part of your narrative to keep ‘progressing humanity towards perfection’ but yet embrace islam which preaches the return to the 7th century and the abandonment of the ‘advancement of civilization’? As a corollary question, what are the theologic implications of the promise of sexual depravity, i.e.,
the eternal enslavement of 72 females for unbridled sexual pleasure by a male who kills other humans who don’t believe what he believes? Does this vision fit your vision of a more ‘progressive’ society?
The biggest hypocrite of all the Catholic Dem politicians may well be Kathleen Sebelius (nee Gilligan). I grew up with her in Cincinnati, where her family (father John J. Gilligan and his brothers) operated funeral homes which their fathers had founded in 1877. The entire family was uber-liberal and wore their Catholicism on their sleeves. Her father entered politics in mid-life and became governor of Ohio. He was to the Ohio governship what Obama is to the presidency–the worst in history. Mrs. Sebelius is and always was an arrogant, “I’m better than you” bitch. She learned from her father that politics was even more lucrative than the funeral business. In every respect, the Gilligan family is a mini-version of the Kennedys who used and abused their “religion” for personal gain.
I’m an independent voter; while I’m liberal on many social issues, I’m firmly pro-life. I’m not a religious person; I just believe it’s impossible to know when human life begins. It sickens me that our society condones elective abortions, although I’ve had many long discussions with a family affected by two difficult pregnancies and believe that abortion should absolutely remain an option if the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother.
So it’s clear that I can’t be a huge fan of any democratic politician, but it’s frustrating to read the comments you guys are writing about Obama. Please hear me out. He is not a muslim. He hasn’t declared war on Christianity. His presidency has been less than brilliant, but he is by no means running our country into the ground. And those of you who made the racist comments, shame on you.
If you really care about ending abortion – as I do – you need to accept that it can only happen after you accept the humanity of the other side. Have you ever really listened to a pro-choice person speak about abortion? There are some very convincing arguments in favor of legalized abortion, and most people who are pro-choice consider abortion a last resort. These are intelligent, compassionate people who looked at the issue and came to a different conclusion than me.
Just look at some of the words you’ve used to describe Obama: “Scum.” “Commie.” “Evil.” “He. Must. Be. Stopped.” That’s no way to foster any sort of change. When’s the last time you listened to someone’s ideas after they called you “Scum?” The racist comments are even worse. Think about what you’re saying.
Being an independent voter, I get it from both sides. Some democrats are just as bad as you guys in terms of the way they hate religious pro-lifers and conservatives. But you guys are taking the cake right now. Wisen up, man! There are over 300 Million people in this country. Just because someone has a different worldview than you – or is running the country in a way that you disagree with – doesn’t make them evil. It doesn’t make them an Anti-Christ.
Fight for what you believe in. Make the bold case that human life is precious in all its forms. But don’t resort to name calling! Don’t resort to spreading lies! If you can make your case – our case – without demonizing the other side, I promise you we will start to convince them one person at a time.
Three years ago I made the statement that Obama was the most dangerous man in the US.Iwas laughed at then,and accused of racism.History will show that Obama is a muslim,and that his only agenda is the destruction of the USA
HAH! I put up an accurate image (in my opinion) of Barry’s arrogance and attitude towards “We the People” at http://anexconsview.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/more-fun-with-barrys-face/
DanlBoone, that link is to an article that is completely clueless about how Catholics regard Mary.
But yes, I believe God is reaching out to the Muslim world through Mary, hence the vision as Fatima.
When Catholics say that they do not worship Mary as a God, why do so many not believe them? Why would Catholics lie about that?
Catholics don’t worship Mary, they pray to her as a friend and intermediary between themselves and God. They pray to God through Mary.
God is kinda cranky with humanity, if you hadn’t noticed.
It helps to place requests through someone God truly loves.
As I’ve said previously, I’ve personally experienced something very profound concerning Mary and praying the Rosary when I was a better and more observant Catholic.
I really don’t understand the vitriol aimed at Christ’s mother, coming from many so-called Christians; as if Mary is just some old scrubber, of no account, rather than the woman chosen to be the mother of Christ.
Why so much hatred towards the Catholic church?
You’d think Catholics went around beheading people or something, rather than praying the Rosary for world peace, the way Catholicism attracts so much angst.
Phewww! Bout time RCs took their share of the rap for electing this asshole.
Responses to NoBlahBlah
QUESTION: Is it really beyond your comprehension or is it simply that you are as big a purveyor of lies as the obongo administration?
Answer: I questioned the lies in the prior posts about Muslims receiving special favors or exemptions. I would assume that if any of the posts were true that someone would have provided some support for the allegations. Either provide some evidence or admit that they are just lies.
QUESTION: As an aetheist, what are the implications of you posting with ‘Christ’ as part of your post ID? Did you enjoy a little perverse giggle about your ‘edginess’?
Answer: Why is questioning attacks on a religion evidence of aetheism? Today is Muslims — which religion will be attacked next?
QUESTION: Why are you so hateful towards people of faith as part of your narrative to keep ‘progressing humanity towards perfection’ but yet embrace islam which preaches the return to the 7th century and the abandonment of the ‘advancement of civilization’? As a corollary question, what are the theologic implications of the promise of sexual depravity, i.e.,
the eternal enslavement of 72 females for unbridled sexual pleasure by a male who kills other humans who don’t believe what he believes? Does this vision fit your vision of a more ‘progressive’ society?
Answer: You are incorrect in accusing anyone who disagrees with your views as hating people of faith. I have questioned attacks on other peoples’ faith, not shown hate toward them. I would not be comfortable being a Muslim, but that does not mean I should attack them. Further, people in glass houses should not throw stones. The Bible, of course, seems to accept slavery as a normal state, and Christians hardly comported themselves well when they, for example, established the Inquisition or annihilated the natives peoples in America – starting with the conquistadors and ending with the massacre at Wounded Knee.
Mike_W,
no. Since you press the issue, Roman Catholicism unequivocally deifies Mary. Co-Redemptrix et so on..
I’m not grinding that ax. I know what I’m talking about. You said,
that’s very unfortunate.
Questions about the government requiring or prohibiting something that conflicts with someone’s faith are entirely real, but not new. The courts have occasionally confronted such issues and have generally ruled that the government cannot enact laws specifically aimed at a particular religion (which would be regarded a constraint on religious liberty contrary to the First Amendment), but can enact laws generally applicable to everyone or at least broad classes of people (e.g., laws concerning traffic, pollution, taxes, contracts, fraud, negligence, crimes, discrimination, employment, and on and on) and can require everyone, including those who may object on religious grounds, to abide by them. Were it otherwise and anyone could opt out of this or that law with the excuse that their religion requires or allows it, the government and the rule of law could hardly operate. Thus, the government can forbid discrimination against specified people and apply that law even to those who say their religion allows or requires them to discriminate. In rare (one hopes) circumstances, such a generally-applicable law could put an individual in an ethical Catch-22 if it requires one to take actions one considers immoral. For just this reason, when such binds can be anticipated, provisions may be added to laws affording some relief to conscientious objectors.
Here, it may be questioned whether there is real need for such an exemption, since no one is being “forced,” as some commentators rage, to act contrary to their belief. Employers generally are not required by law to offer health-related benefits to their employees, although the practice of providing such benefits is common. IF an employer chooses to offer health benefits, though, federal anti-discrimination laws and health plan enforcement regulations act to protect an employee’s rights under those health plans. So, depending on whether an exemption to the law is allowed, either employers or employees are put to a choice. If religious employers are exempted from current discrimination and health benefit laws so they can offer health benefits omitting some medications and services, employees can choose whether to accept such benefits or seek employment elsewhere. If current discrimination and health benefit laws are enforced, religious employers can choose to offer health plans complying with those laws or not offer any health plans at all. To the extent that employers already have an option under the current laws consistent with their religious views, they have less need for an exemption from those laws.
@christfair says:
January 21, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Responses to NoBlahBlah
Q.1. Non responsive, do your own homework, it isn’t up to me to educate you and you have already proven that you will not accept anything but administration talking points as facts, in other words, I’m not wasting my time
Q.2. Evidenced by your initial post, you believe in the doctrine of moral equivalency. You should either become more familiar with the implications of this or simply admit my characterization
Q.3. Non responsive. Once again you characterize islam as a religion without addressing my question regarding the moral foundation upon which the cult of death builds its edifice of moral depravity. Once again, you embrace moral equivalency.
If I thought you were serious about understanding the roots of moral equivalency and the negative impact it has upon societies I would recommend ‘Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures’ by Pope Benedict XVI, 2006. But confidence is low that you are intellectually honest enough on a personal level to really want to honestly understand the implications of your post.
Good luck
DanlBoone,
No, once again you are telling Catholics what they believe instead of listening to what Catholics say.
Why do you insist on telling Catholics what they believe?
Catholics do NOT deify Mary as God.
We believe that Mary has a special place by Jesus’ side and is especially loved by God.
It is a matter of love and devotion to Mary, just as you might be devoted to your mother, not worship of Mary as God.
Catholics believe that Mary is Co-Redemptrix in the sense that devotion to Mary brings us closer to her Son. Redemption is through Jesus Christ.
“When the Church invokes Mary under the title, “Coredemptrix”, she means that Mary uniquely participated in the redemption of the human family by Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Saviour. At the Annunciation (cf.Lk.1:38) Mary freely cooperated in giving the Second Person of the Trinity his human body which is the very instrument of redemption, as Scripture tells us: “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb.10:10).
And at the foot of the cross of our Saviour (Jn.19:26), Mary’s intense sufferings, united with those of her Son, as Pope John Paul II tells us, were, “also a contribution to the Redemption of us all” (Salvifici Doloris, n.25). Because of this intimate sharing in the redemption accomplished by the Lord, the Mother of the Redeemer is uniquely and rightly referred to by Pope John Paul II and the Church as the “Coredemptrix.”
It is important to note that the prefix “co” in the title Coredemptrix does not mean “equal to” but rather “with”, coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary’s unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.”
http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/coredemptrix.html
And why is it unfortunate that God would reach out to the islamic world through Mary?
Muslims are his creation as well; why wouldn’t God want them to be brought to Christ through Mary?
Not in the least Mike_W.,
I’m not telling you or aor any indivudual Catholic what they believe. I’m saying in no unequivocal terms that Rome deifies Mary.. not the Mary of the bible, but a traditional Romish Mary.
Rome’s titles for Mary: Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix are true Roman Catholic doctrine that deifies Mary.
You mentioned earlier that you “pray to Mary” .. that is deification of Mary.
Reasoning with you seems impossible, DanlBoone.
__
it’s an anti-biblical construct for one thing. You’re welcome to your own ideas, or Rome’s doctrines.. but don’t necessarily expect other Christians to agree with you.
“Mother of God” is another Roman title for Mary that is a heterodox doctrine, again, deifying a Mary inconsistent to the Mary, mother of Jesus of Nazareth, of the bible.
Not at all Mike. I’m not pressing an deified Mary. I’m not your enemy, nor you mine.
Some things are non-negotiable: there is only One Name whereby we must be saved.
__
I’ve read that some bible scholars feel a certain evidence might posit Saul of Tarsus/Paul seeking out the Ishmaelites in the northern Arabian desert during his three years sojourn following his divine arrest en-route to Damascus whereat he desired to arrest and waste Christians..
This may not exceed informed conjecture.. but much more consistent to biblical Christian thought than the imagined Mary figure of peculiarly Roman origin.
You continue to ignore what I say concerning what I believe as a Catholic, while insisting on projecting your own prejudices onto me.
How many times do I need to say that I don’t believe Mary is God before you will listen?
We respect and are devoted to Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ; what is so terrible about that?
‘It is important to note that the prefix “co” in the title Coredemptrix does not mean “equal to” but rather “with”, coming from the Latin word cum. The Marian title Coredemptrix never places Mary on a level of equality with her Divine Son, Jesus Christ. Rather it refers to Mary’s unique human participation which is completely secondary and subordinate to the redeeming role of Jesus, who alone is true God and true Man.”’
That’s swell Mike,
what does it have to do with the bible?
What does it have to do with the Bible?
Mary was a witness to virtually the entire New Testament and the fulfillment of much of the Old Testament.
Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ, raised him, witnessed all the key moments in Christ’s life, including the Annunciation and the miracle of the water turned to wine, Christ’s suffering, crucifixion and death.
Mary was there with the apostles at Pentecost, the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles , Acts 2:2-4
‘Paul speaks of the Son of God being born “in the fullness of time” and “born of a woman, born under the Law” (Galatians 4:4). The birth of Mary’s son is the fulfilment of God’s will for Israel, and Mary’s part in that fulfilment is that of free and unqualified consent in utter self-giving and trust: “Behold I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be done to me according to your word” (Luke 1:38; cf. Psalm 123:2).’
‘The divine initiative in human history is proclaimed in the good news of the virginal conception through the action of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20-23; Luke 1:34-35). ‘
‘In his second book, the Acts of the Apostles, Luke notes that between the ascension of the Risen Lord and the feast of Pentecost the apostles were gathered in Jerusalem “together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers” (Acts 1:14). Mary, who was receptive to the working of God’s Spirit at the birth of the Messiah (Luke 1:35-38), is here part of the community of disciples waiting in prayer for the outpouring of the Spirit at the birth of the Church.’
At the wedding at Canaa
‘Mary’s response, to instruct the servants to “Do whatever he tells you” (2:5), is unexpected; she is not in charge of the feast (cf. 2:8). Her initial role as the mother of Jesus has radically changed. She herself is now seen as a believer within the messianic community. From this moment on, she commits herself totally to the Messiah and his word. A new relationship results, indicated by the change in the order of the main characters at the end of the story: “After this he went down to Capernaum, with his mother and his brothers and his disciples” (2:12). The Cana narrative opens by placing Jesus within the family of Mary, his mother; from now on, Mary is part of the “company of Jesus”, his disciple. Our reading of this passage reflects the Church’s understanding of the role of Mary: to help the disciples come to her son, Jesus Christ, and to “do whatever he tells you.”’
‘John’s second mention of the presence of Mary occurs at the decisive hour of Jesus’ messianic mission, his crucifixion (19:25-27). Standing with other disciples at the cross, Mary shares in the suffering of Jesus, who in his last moments addresses a special word to her, “Woman, behold your son”, and to the beloved disciple, “Behold your mother.” We cannot but be touched that, even in his dying moments, Jesus is concerned for the welfare of his mother, showing his filial affection. This surface reading again invites a symbolic and ecclesial reading of John’s rich narrative. These last commands of Jesus before he dies reveal an understanding beyond their primary reference to Mary and “the beloved disciple” as individuals. The reciprocal roles of the ‘woman’ and the ‘disciple’ are related to the identity of the Church. Elsewhere in John, the beloved disciple is presented as the model disciple of Jesus, the one closest to him who never deserted him, the object of Jesus’ love, and the ever-faithful witness (13:25, 19:26, 20:1-10, 21:20-25). Understood in terms of discipleship, Jesus’ dying words give Mary a motherly role in the Church and encourage the community of disciples to embrace her as a spiritual mother.’
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/angl-comm-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20050516_mary-grace-hope-christ_en.html
Romish Marianism Mike,
I’ve heard it all my life.
it’s all yours.
I thought to just drop this. It’s a weary old canard anyhow. Surely can’t talk someone out of believing something they are convinced of regardless of arguments..
that’s a folly.. a spiritual pride. It’s actually a very simple exercise to illuminate the fallacy in Rome’s doctrines about Mary.. that is to say fallacy as regarding a departure from the scripture. It is supported by Roman tradition primarily, and extra-biblical [apocryphal] literature.
At it’s base it is unequivocally a goddess construct rhetorical machinations like the absurdity Mike posted [pasted] about some imagined position of Mary as being some sort of overarching Mother of God heresy.
God has no Mother.. that is actually much more consistent to the biblical referents Mike pasted regarding the passage about John and Mary at the foot of the cross.
Regardless of subtle and verbose arguments from Rome, the Mary of Roman Catholicism departs from the Mary of the bible. She is transformed above that of a human being.. it’s inescapable; this is exactly what Rome does.
The whole thing is a terrible wrenching of the Word. It casts aspersion on the cross.. Mary adds nothing to the fidelity of Christ.. nothing. it’s a blasphemy.
Christ alone is the sole agent and arbiter of salvation. Not Mary, not the Apostles, not the supposed 12th mufti.. NO ONE.
Christ is the creator.. Mary, tho honored as a frightened and confused young virgin girl, is seated with us all [all] in Christ. She is not above that position.. no one is [no one]..
Mary and John’s place at the foot of the cross is where all Christians find our Lord.. [all]. That is much more consistent to the biblical context of that referent.. Nothing there supports the our heavenly mother construct it is just that; something forced into the text.. otherwise it isn’t there. Period.
It forces an allegory on the text. Rome’s Augustine was largely responsible for an errant theology that forced allegory overall. That is how heresies like Kingdom Now, or Dominionist theology, Replacement theology, and so on derived. These are anti-semitic theologies, placing Israel’s eternal promises solely onto the Church.. buh-bye Israel..
In fact, Rome’s official position, at least as recently as within the last decade -refused to recognize the sovereign state of Israel. That’s Rome and individual Catholics are not withstanding.
When I talk about Catholicism [we listened to bishop Sheen when I was 10 yo altar boy ~1/2 c ago] I’m talking about Roman doctrine unequivocally, and orthodox Christian theology specifically -NOT individual Catholics, like those in my own family.
I lived and breathed Roman Catholicism as a child and studied it sincerely as an adult Christian. There’s plenty of false doctrine in the protestant church so called as well. It’s a good idea [if not a little painful] to examine what and why we believe what we do. Most Christians are illiterate as to their own beliefs.
That makes a person vulnerable to distortions. In my own experience, I find a cyclical thing occurring in patterns in my life that always return me to the foot of the cross.. not above it.
Someone said, “A religion that withstands little criticism is worth little regret.”
Smart person that Someone. Mariology/ Marianism is a brittle construct that withstands little/no biblical scrutiny.
Subtle language like , “Mother of Christ” is an obfuscation.
DanlBoone, let me just reiterate an experience I had concerning Mary and the Rosary.
A few years ago I was praying the Rosary regularly and attending Mass everyday, performing novenas for members of my family.
I was a better and more observant Catholic then.
One night I had a very strange dream.
I was somehere very safe and in the company of two ladies.
Outside, there was noise and confusion and war but where we were there was perfect peace and a feeling of safety.
Then I became aware that the three of us were sheltering under the mantle, or outer cloak, of Our Lady, Mary. She was keeping us safe from harm.
I turned to one of the ladies there and said, “This is the power of Our Lady”.
The next day was Sunday and I attended Mass at a local church, Our Lady of Fatima church.
I had no idea it was the anniversary of Mary’s miraculous appearance at Fatima.
When I entered the chuch I was absolutely amazed.
On a screen at the front of the church a photograph of a painting of Our Lady of Fatima was being projected.(I had never seen this painting prior to this, nor have I seen this painting since).
The painting showed Mary sheltering the three children of Fatima under her mantle, or outer cloak.
I was completely stunned.
The meaning of this experience for me was that the Rosary and devotion to Mary will provide a spiritual refuge during coming calamities.
ok.
Charismatics claim visions, prophecies and so on as well. I don’t believe it; but I do believe that they believe it. It can be distracting. At it’s root, I believe it is simply a result of false teaching.
Sure can’t argue with someone’s perceptions and or sensations.. purely subjective.
But subjective [private] interpretations of the bible are an entirely different matter:
I’m not arguing on the basis of perception/sensation/experience. Mine is an wholly biblical position. Altho far from perfect in that, and still to acknowledge that even a sound doctrine can be an hypocrisy given the nature of [a] fallen man.. a heart and a mind can be disjointed.
{My people’s lips are toward Me, but their hearts are far away}[sic]
I unequivocally believe that the Word is where we will agree or disagree.. beyond that, it’s moot.
“My Beloved, chosen among the creatures, our kingdom is Thine; Thou shalt be the Lady and the Sovereign of the seraphim, of all the ministering spirits, the angels and of the entire universe of creatures. Attend, proceed and govern prosperously over them, for in our supreme consistory We give Thee power, majesty and sovereignty. Being filled with grace beyond all the rest, Thou hast humiliated Thyself in thy own estimation to the lowest place; receive now the supreme dignity deserved by Thee and, as a participation in our Divinity, the dominion over all the creatures of our Omnipotence. From thy royal throne to the centre of the earth Thou shalt reign; and by the power We now give Thee Thou shalt subject hell with all its demons and inhabitants. Let all of them fear Thee as the supreme Empress and Mistress of those caverns and dwelling-places of our enemies. In thy hands and at thy pleasure We place the influences and forces of the heavens, the moisture of the clouds, the growths of the earth; and of all of them do Thou distribute according to thy will, and our own will shall be at thy disposal for the execution of thy wishes. Thou shalt be the Empress and Mistress of the militant Church, its Protectress, its Advocate, its Mother and Teacher. Thou shalt be the special Patroness of the Catholic countries; and whenever they, or the faithful, or any of the children of Adam call upon Thee from their heart, serve or oblige Thee, Thou shalt relieve and help them in their labors and necessities. Thou shalt be the Friend, the Defender and the Chieftainess of all the just and of our friends; all of them Thou shalt comfort, console and fill with blessings according to their devotion to Thee. In view of all this We make Thee the Depositary of our riches, the Treasurer of our goods; we place into thy hands the helps and blessings of our grace for distribution; nothing do We wish to be given to the world, which does not pass through thy hands; and nothing do We deny, which Thou wishest to concede to men. Grace shall be diffused in thy lips for obtaining all that Thou wishest and ordainest in heaven and on earth, and everywhere shall angels and men obey Thee; because whatever is ours shall be thine, just as Thou hast always been ours; and Thou shalt reign with Us forever.”
http://www.sacredheart.com/The_Mystical_City_of_God_Book_08_Chapter_08.htm
I’m not gonna bother reading that paste job, Mike,
What are your thoughts about anything I’ve said. Did you bother reading any of my post?
I get the impression that you do not.
In fact, I do not believe that you actually have any argument at all. Pasting Catholic devotional stuff isn’t an argument; it’s a deflection. What are your beliefs based on the bible? Otherwise, you’ve just dodged the conversation.
The religious machinations that inform you are just that -religiosity. I’m talking about biblical Christianity –not religious swooning, ritual, or ecstatic experience -so called.
The Roman Mary is not the Mary of the bible.
Self piety is an evil idea fomented in hell. It was/is the lie in the Garden. It is no small part of the Islamic delusion, but is also what drives a false [legalistic] presentation of what would be Christianity.
That’s what religious ceremony and ritual do –delude. A person does not draw nearer to God by some religious behavior –that’s a delusion.
It’s by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone
sola gratia, sola fides, sola Christo
What are your beliefs, Mike?
Mike and Dan, I’ve been following your discussion , here’s my 3rd party observation :
You both have deep seated beliefs based on two different Christian indoctrinations one Catholic the other some form sola fides, sola scriptoria Protestantism . The interesting thing here is the Catholic guy is the one who is defending his point with scripture while the protestant guy demands “whatyou’re your beliefs based on the bible” but does not back his point with any biblical text. That is, the Catholic guy seems to know his bible well,and the bible guy seems to base his point on some type of anti-Catholic
Indoctrination . Though we may not all agree with Catholic doctrine, one does not have to speculate what true Catholic doctrine is, just go to the “Catechism of the Catholic Church” and look it up instead
of attacking a false straw dog version of the true doctrine.
sure thing AZDave,
I haven’t been able to engage Mike on a biblical basis beyond his pasting in Catholic Marionism .. which is not a biblical argument. It’s an deflection from Catholic tradition.
If you think Catholic catechism and bible exegesis is the same thing, you’re simply mistaken. It’s not a pissing contest Dave.
the way I see it, we’re brothers, Mike,
but in Christ, not Mary, or any other
AZDave – I do not get the impression that DanlBoone is anti-Catholic at all. I think you misread or misunderstand Mike’s and Danl’s discussion. A big takeaway from the discussion is Danl’s point that one cannot call Mary the Mother of GOD; since HE is GOD and created her, for one thing. I can also understand the point that Christ says the only way to GOD is through the Son…he never said that the only way to GOD was through the Son…and oh, by the way, my mother. I don’t recall anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus said we are supposed to pray to GOD through Mary, but that does not make me anti-Catholic either. It means I disagree with them on how to pray to GOD and how I view Mary, though.
the foot of the cross.. horrid, desolate.. madness is only a relative term, fear no longer feels like fear.. feels more like desperate anger and abject shame. I am alone. I know my last enemy (death) is greater than me, but I know that I desire to acquiesce only when the flesh that condemns, my own heart that condemns me along with the the accuser of my life, finally swoons to it’s one appointment..
{behold, all that I have feared is come to pass} [sic]
the Word says that Greater is He Who is in me, than he who is in the world {and comes against me}[sic]
and when my heart condemns me, He is greater than my heart and [He] knows all things. [sic]
and Instead of the good life I know to live, more often than not, I have found myself doing the very thing I hate. _ Danl’s Paraphrased Version 2012 [sic]
Religion doesn’t help me here.. ceremony and ritual are an abomination before the vacant cross where my true indictments are nailed in innocent blood.
it’s this dynamic tension between a person and the Savior that is obscured by all the lies around us about God, doesn’t matter which false teaching, or whether it’s from Rome, Southern Baptist Convention, or any other group in Christendom..
My only Hope is the living Hope.. only the Living Truth can trump the facts of my life from the spoiler’s net.
We all have the meta-physical, if you will, to deal with.. but it’s an unreliable compass. Only the bible informs reliably.
We are brothers, not enemies, in the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Thanks Thom,
I’m a little down this am.. an uncle of mine that was great to me growing up -he’s ~10yr older than myself- recently dx w lung Ca. His name is Thomas..
no unusual meaning implied.. it’s just that I don’t live in an arbitrary world of coinky-dink
have a good day bro
hello Dave.