New Bible Translation Removes “Father” And “Son” From The Trinity Because Terms “Offensive To Muslims”…
What the ….?
(Yahoo! News) — A controversy is brewing over three reputable Christian organizations, which are based in North America, whose efforts have ousted the words “Father” and “Son” from new Bibles. Wycliffe Bible Translators, Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) and Frontiers are under fire for “producing Bibles that remove “Father,” “Son” and “Son of God” because these terms are offensive to Muslims.”
Concerned Christian missionaries, Bible translators, pastors, and national church leaders have come together with a public petition to stop these organizations. They claim a public petition is their last recourse because meetings with these organizations’ leaders, staff resignations over this issue and criticism and appeals from native national Christians concerned about the translations “have failed to persuade these agencies to retain “Father” and “Son” in the text of all their translations.”
Biblical Missiology, a ministry of Boulder, Colorado-based Horizon International, is sponsoring the petition.
The main issues of this controversy surround new Arabic and Turkish translations. Here are three examples native speakers give:
First, Wycliffe and SIL have produced Stories of the Prophets, an Arabic Bible that uses an Arabic equivalent of “Lord” instead of “Father” and “Messiah” instead of “Son.”
Second, Frontiers and SIL have produced Meaning of the Gospel of Christ , an Arabic translation which removes “Father” in reference to God and replaces it with “Allah,” and removes or redefines “Son.” For example, the verse which Christians use to justify going all over the world to make disciples, thus fulfilling the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19) reads, “Cleanse them by water in the name of Allah, his Messiahand his Holy Spirit” instead of “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Rev. Bassam Madany, an Arab American who runs Middle East Resources, terms these organization’s efforts as “a western imperialistic attempt that’s inspired by cultural anthropology, and not by biblical theology.”
Posted by ZIP on Tuesday, January 31, 2012, at 9:21 am | 
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You have GOT to be kidding
Who is their market? the muzzies? They will be stoned to death if they buy it,
I hope they burn in hell with the cultists of Death
America, how far will you let Moslems go before you wake up?
If not, Lucifer will hold the Gates open for the entire USA.
I think I have heard everything now…..Where was the original Bible written, wasn’t in somewhere in the belly of what is currently the muslim world. Folks get your guns cleaned and keep your powder dry…the day to settle this is getting close….I will not live under islamic rules I hope you feel the same.
Sunday my pastor made the comment “sin makes you stupid”; I near split my side laughing. Yep, that rightly explains the abject stupidity of a lot of people in this country – WEAPONS GRADE STUPID.
What isn’t offensive to muslims? Oh, that’s right – honor killings, beheadings, blowing up innocent people and we’re worried about offending these savages WHY!?!
Creeping Islamification.
It’s how they slowly takeover, one little bit at a time until they have control.
And we have a Muslim President already.
The greatest damage he is doing to our country is in how he is Islamifying our society from within.
THAT is his role; to let help Islam get a foothold.
You know, North Korea is starting to look like a pretty good place to live!
Stealth jihad. Plain and simple.
The people involved in this have been infiltrated or bought off by the muzz.
Slowly, slowly, slowly everywhere you look, you see the muzz footprint.
They are invading every area of our lives and infecting our culture with their diseased screed. Undermining us, twisting truth, and erasing our beliefs.
They don’t quit.
We may have all the watches but the muzz have all the time.
The only way not to be offensive to Muslims is to print Qurans.
Since its birth, Islam has been at perpetual war with everything that is not Islam.
I find the entire contents of the Quran offensive.
Would they rewrite any of their text?
Especially the parts about the infidels?
Here’s the petition. Sign it if you are so inclined. I DID!
http://www.change.org/petitions/lost-in-translation-keep-father-son-in-the-bible
How pathetic. Is there anyone with any balls to stand up to the Mohammedans?
You will be assimilated, or die.
These fools have chosen to be assimilated but they don’t realize their religion is dying, one edit at a time.
Holy Moses I’ve heard it all now!! We’re going to hell-in-a- handbasket!
Got news for the morons at Wycliffe Bible Translators, Summer Institute of Linguistics (SIL) and Frontiers:
THE ENTIRE BIBLE IS OFFENSIVE TO MUSLIMS – especially from those who live in the perpetually-outraged mode.
I think this absolutely takes the cake. Every PC announcement from here to eternity could not match this one for stupidity.
I’m not much on burning books but maybe this one is worthy of the fire….
Who decides this friggin’ nonsense and what right do they have to force others to comply?
For God’s sake, America. Grow a friggin’ pair already!
“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.”
2nd Timothy 4, 3-4
It gets worse – these ‘bibles’ read from back to front.
But they had to do it, because otherwise the muslimes would get dizzy reading them.
3 issues: 1. baptizing is not cleansing, it is a symbolic act indicating that we have placed our faith and trust in Jesus: The messiah, 2. it would be more precise to say the God of Abraham rather than Allah, and 3. it should be His Holy Spirit rather than his..
@chickadee: the muzz, as do the rest of us, have time till we die and then it is entirely in God’s hands whether we live with Him for ever more or not and there is only one basis by which we might: the basis of our relationship with The Messiah: Jesus.
There is also a new printing of the Bible with wording meant to strictly appeal to feminists. All references to gender have been removed and replaced. I compared it to the Ken doll without genatalia! How does that square?
Muslims must have worked their way into positions of power or influence in this publishing house to enact these senseless changes, because we know there aren’t Muslims out there reading the Bible to get offended.
” Offensive to Muslims “. . . That is all the more reason to keep it in the Bible!
Never, Ever appease Muslims in any way, don’t pander to them, but fight the alien creatures every step of the way.
The time will come when Islam and its zealots will be removed from our Western Nations.
Thinking people have had enough of that bullshite “religion” and its nutbar believers.
Enough is enough!
I had a friend in Willow Street who worked as a translator for Wycliffe in Ghana. I’m certain he would have resigned over this.
I would suggest everyone to read Rev. 22 verses 18 & 19. If they do change if for the muslims there will be a high price to pay. Look at the pastor in Florida when he wanted to burn the koran he got death threats etc. But, yet these very same muslims come along and say what ever they like. They don’t even read the Bible, so what is it to them. If you think “Satan is well and alive” think again, we are dealing with him day in and day out “Moslem” Islam it is santanic
Excuse me? Appeals “have failed to persuade these agencies to retain “Father” and “Son” in the text of all their translations.”?
If you didn’t buy them maybe those appeals would carry more weight? Find a new translator, period. This isn’t rocket science. These people are in business first to make a profit. Petitions and strongly worded letters describing how they will now take their business elsewhere are not going to cut it on its own to send the real message. Even if they agree to change it back business must still be taken away. You want to send a message? Tell them you’ll never buy their product ever again, and then put deed to word. Hit the profits.
Anyone who dares to a make changes in the Koran will be considered a blasphemer and be sentence to death.
The words in the Koran are considered pure for all time and cannot be abrogated.
Mohammed revered Jesus and Mary but then said the bible was corrupted by Jews. He did this of course in an effort to marginalize both Christians and Jews.
Let me see if I have this straight.
The Quran says that it’s okay to murder Christians because they are infidels. And now some Christians say they must change their holy scriptures because they way their written might offend the people who believe that it’s okay to kill them.
Oy vey…
We are in the age of the Antichrist, folks.
A lot of the prophecy stuff my mother used to reasd to me when I was a kid, and I thought were more ‘out there’ than some of my favorite sci-fi movies, now are ‘translating’ these days.
King James Version, people. No “translated” versions necessary.
Screw muslims why must they cow tow to this bunch of camel jockeys?
At the risk of stating the obvious, how many Muslims read Bibles anyway?
It’s not a BIBLE. It’s trash like the cockran. It’s called the BIRAN.
a human says:
January 31, 2012 at 9:54 am
You got one thing COMPLETELY WRONG. allah is NOT the GOD of Abraham, or even god, allah always was and always is SATAN, Lucifer, the Dragon.
Think I’ll go buy a bunch of quarans this week, they’d make a great substitute for firewood.
The muslim allah is a moon god of the bedouin pagans, so interchanging “allah” for “Father” is completely wrong.
Hrm, there must be more to it than this article reveals. I am very familiar with Wycliffe and SIL – my in-laws were Wycliffe missionaries in Africa for 6 years and I was in Kenya for an SIL New Testament dedication last year. They do fantastic translation work, translating from the original Greek and Hebrew to a language and then back to verify accuracy. They do have to make necessary adjustments since some things don’t translate well, but adhere as much to the original text as possible.
I’m not excusing this, but I don’t know that we know the whole story or whether something was taken out of context. This controversy is certainly inconsistent with what I know about these organizations.
And Jethro, the King James Version is a translated version, so your point is moot.
I have officially heard everything. I’m fairly certain their is a Muslim version of the Borg (The Morg) going around.
And Dirt-nap O.bammydaddy and Allahu Akbama has been added to the holey Quran.
burn it
@wisco—thanks signed it.
Outrage here. Now I am calling all of Representatives to tell them to FIGHT these Islamist Supremists. Everywhere Islam was allowed to freely “assimilate” the indigenous people and their culture are now annihilated.
Do what Pamela Geller , Robert Spencer, Steve Coughlin, Gen. Boykin ( just banned at WP) , Frank Gaffney, David Yerushalimi, Bill Warner, Claire Lopez, Tom Trento, Patrick Poole, Diana West, Steve Emerson, Walid Shoebat, Ba et Yoer, Geert Wilders, Bat Ye’or, Raymond Ibrahim, James Woosley, David Horowitz, Andrew Mc Carthy and other brave leaders are doing—TELL THE TRUTH.
One thing in common with all these brave hereos—are RARELY on TV
To tolerate the intolerant is INSANITY
@Genghis Khen – you hit it right – there is much more to this. The article skews the real story to stir the up the pot, otherwise who would bother reading it.
This is not coming up with some new translation like the KJV or NIV. This is for a Arabic translation. It is not intended to “appease” Muslims by not being “offensive,” as some of the commenters have mentioned. It is meant to get across a message to someone who has no understanding of the Gospel.
As someone who has been involved in cross-cultural missions, I understand the difficulty in reaching people from non-Western cultures where they simply have no understanding. Everyone in the West at least has a frame of reference of Christianity. Most other places in the world do not.
Then to take the translation and then try to translate back into English, well – that’s just going to muddle things further. You can’t be “West-centric” when trying to translate these concepts into unrelated languages.
To come at this as if it is trying to “appease” is to miss the point.
For anyone interested, it’s pronounced “Wick – liff”.
Simple solution. don’t buy Wycliffe bibles or other materials. there are many reputable bible publishers.
Fuck the muslims ! Last i knew they have there own religion…
Somehow I don’t think these revisionist “Bibles” would have helped the 35 Christians who had fingers stuck up their vaginas & were beaten after the Saudis raided their private gathering.
moHAMmed worshipers already claim the Bible to be corrupted. So, editing the Bible would simply give moHAMmed worshipers more ammo to continue their assault on Christianity.
The Bible has something to say about what happens to you when you mess around with the wording. It ain’t pretty.
@beforethestorm – If you are referring to Revelation 22:18-19, your proof text is out of context. By that logic, we should only read the scriptures in Hebrew and Greek, since even the KJV translators changed the names of God to fit the language.
I didn’t know that Muslims read the Bible. I thought they read the Koran.
A little OT: Last month’s National Geographic had an interesting article about the Bible. Basically, King James gathered the most renowned scolars of the day, who gathered the most accepted books of then-current bibles, and decided which books to include or not include and what prose to re-write them in. I always wondered what was in the books they rejected.
I got an ideal, Let’s burn korans.
The link to the petition has been posted. Here is a pdf file that further details the objections, Wycliffe responses, and more discussions:
http://biblicalmissiology.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/LostInTranslation-FactCheck.pdf
Wycliffe’s main argument is that they need to translate the terms in such a way as to ensure that Muslims do not misunderstand the scripture and think that God had sexual relations with Mary. I say, Hogwash! From the pdf file:
“The nature of the reader’s offense has no bearing on what God actually says and means in his Word. … We are not to take away from his Word (Deut. 4:2). “Father” and “Son” are not metaphors. They refer to who God is eternally, in his very being: one God in three persons, Father, Son and Spirit. We cannot change these eternal terms for God.”
….my understanding on this is that Wycliffe is seeing a substantial drop in donations. I haven’t any data to substantiate that, though. Likely, though.
Not a Bible scholar, but anything relative to the “Christian” Life is the adherence in the belief of the Trinity and the sacredness of that.
Without the Trinity, you do not have the Gospels.
How Wycliffe gets around this is still a mystery to me.
Isn’t it “shirk” to associate partners with “Allah” the Islamic god?
Is that the real reason for the replacement words?
Father and Son of God would be considered “shirk” in Islam from what I’ve read in the quranic verse 4:48 – (to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed).
So I guess as not to insult others in their religious text, we have to insult God Almighty and ourselves within our own religious texts now???
What a blasphemous and offensive approach these publishers have taken towards the followers of Christianity by sugar coating and omitting key words within their texts as not to offend others.
Please take note of the publishers of bibles.
in the King James Version and then in the New International Version. Notice something very important missing?
Many publishing houses have left out whole sentences and combined two verses into one. Check out all the different versions of the book of (1 John) – (Chapter 5 – Verse 7 +
This is what’s missing: “The Father, The Word (Son), and The Holy Ghost”.
Then look at who owns these publishing houses.
One day there will not be a single publishing house you can trust.
If I remember correctly, the Thomas Nelson publishing company was just bought out. I wonder who is consolidating all these bible publishing houses into one great entity, that sees no problem in taking out the most important aspect of the whole reason for the Christian faith.
Remember: “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son”. ( 1 John 2:22)
“I wonder who is consolidating all these bible publishing houses into one great entity, that sees no problem in taking out the most important aspect of the whole reason for the Christian faith.”
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Now that is a serious bit to chew on! What about Tyndale publishing? How is that standing?
Correction: I’m not sure how that smiley face got there in place of “verse 7 + 8″ … smiles anyways for speaking my mind and my spirit.
Following on that. The KJV vs. the NIV. The KJV states the witness in Heaven and the Witness on Earth. The Spirit and the Word.
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Curiously, I was reading this from another commentary. Not sure what to make of it. A fair amount of it is over my head. If anyone interested, here is what one commentary says:
1 John 5:7
There are three that bear record—The FATHER, who bears testimony to his Son; the WORD or Λογος, Logos, who bears testimony to the Father; and the HOLY GHOST, which bears testimony to the Father and the Son. And these three are one in essence, and agree in the one testimony, that Jesus came to die for, and give life to, the world.
But it is likely this verse is not genuine. It is wanting in every MS. of this epistle written before the invention of printing, one excepted, the Codex Montfortii, in Trinity College, Dublin: the others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve.
It is wanting in both the Syriac, all the Arabic, Ethiopic, the Coptic, Sahidic, Armenian, Slavonian, etc., in a word, in all the ancient versions but the Vulgate; and even of this version many of the most ancient and correct MSS. have it not. It is wanting also in all the ancient Greek fathers; and in most even of the Latin.
The words, as they exist in all the Greek MSS. with the exception of the Codex Montfortii, are the following:—
“Verse 6. This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness because the Spirit is truth.
Verse 7. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
Verse 9. If we receive the witness of man, the witness of God is greater, etc.”
The words that are omitted by all the MSS., the above excepted, and all the versions, the Vulgate excepted, are these:—
[In heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and there are three which bear witness in earth].
To
—Adam Clarke’s Commentary
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p.s. what is “MSS”?
To “Hickster”
Yes … it’s very serious.
It’s worth looking into for all of us who are deeply concerned about this.
I haven’t done a deep study into who’s who in publishing, but we definitely need to take notice, and do our best to inform others.
I had acquired a brief study into who is running most of the media and publishing houses, but it is not current, because I believe it was done back in 2006. Yet the path keeps leading back to a select group of people with ethnic ties and corporate positions throughout most of these companies.
I’ve gathered some info off of a place called Watchmen Bible Study Group, and I think their web is “bible study site . com”. I don’t necessarily agree with totally everything on their site, but there’s a lot there that makes total sense, in regards to these companies. Especially as to what we now see being portrayed in much the media these days.
The site has a question and answer page which is very long. So you have to do a lot of searching and scrolling down for what I speak of about these media companies and publishing houses.
Then what they state there leads me back to a couple of verses in scripture about the “synagogue of satan” in Revelation, and the other verse in one of the gospels about the scribes and Pharisees who were called “of their father, and their father was a liar and murderer from the beginning”, meaning you know who. Eye opening stuff for sure.
I hope this helps some. I’m not here to bash anyone. But I’m not here to let truth be trampled upon by those with ill will and intent either.
“I hope this helps some. I’m not here to bash anyone. But I’m not here to let truth be trampled upon by those with ill will and intent either.”
========================================================
I’m with you on that! There is such an overwhelming amount of things going on nowdays. Political, Spiritual Medical, Physical, Economical. It’s endless enough to make a person wonder which direction you ought to look @ the most. It all gets to be so absorbing.
Frequently I post references from what bible commentaries, and translations seems to help expand into the Biblical aspect of things as we see so much before our very eyes how the prophecies of the Bible are happening. To those who have not yet opened their eyes to see, then it isn’t noticed. For those of us that do try to grapple with how all these things are forming. Than one looks to the Bible. My intentions with it are not to “beat someone over the head” as it were with it. Rather, to those of like minded curosity, then I’d like to post those references.
You do bring up an ESSENTIAL to the whole of it. One of the online commentaries that I do go to is this “Adam Clarke’s Commentary”. HOWEVER, now with these particular verses you mentioned, NOTICE what it says there in the second paragraph! This is boggling. The scriptures, the commentaries. It’s a cascade-effect happening.
See what it said? ” But it is likely this verse is not genuine.” Then it goes on to tell how in other language translations is already lacking.
WHAT is GOING on? Too much for us with the human mind to comprehend I think.
added note: Some time ago I had read that the linguistic scholars that put together the KJV edition have been, through history, regarded as some of the most brilliant linguists of all time.
MN Jim ,
Did NG also tell about King James revisions to make royals closer to g-d than common people and his love of young boys?
The new version is being published for ME Christians.But it is revised to appease muslims also.It removes the idea of the Trinity and any reference to Jesus being more than a prophet.It is based on the “new” religion Chrislam and is supported by some mainstream US ministers /religions.
To: “Hickster”
That’s all over my head too.
I’m not a bible scholar, but this is what I see a difference in:
King James Version (1John 5:7 thru
– And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
7) – For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Then I look at the New International Version (1John 5:7 thru
– the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
7) – For there are three that testify:
The New International Version omitted the most important part in verse 7.
As far as I know, the King James Version has the best translation.
Whether those big studies that argues for it or against it, … well … I’m coming to a point in history where those who call themselves scholars now, are not to be trusted. Pretty much like the Scribes and Pharisees of old that were spoken of in the gospels were not to be trusted because they corrupted the teachings, slew the good prophets, and listened to the bad, and applied their traditions of men instead, and they were not called of their Father in heaven either. Christ Jesus applied another father to them.
Discernment through the Holy Spirit will be my guide in these things now.
I know I’ve probably rattled on enough for too many people to bear.
But I’m a truth seeker, and if the spirit moves me to speak up and out, I do.
sorry again peeps … I don’t know why those smiley faces keep taking the place of the #8 key … maybe I’m too tired and I hit the shift button that automatically brings up a smiley face for the #8 key.
The 1st bibles were written in Byblos ,i think in the current state of Lebanon .It was an ancient semitic – Phoenician – Canaanite trading center.
Chrislam is a merging of Christian and Islamic beliefs .It is evolving in several areas including the ME,Europe and the US.It is the product of multicultural libs.
@little sister
8 ) makes a smiley. I’ve switched to using brackets for numerical lists – it’s not anything you’re doing wrong.
@little sister:
“But I’m a truth seeker, and if the spirit moves me to speak up and out, I do.”
By all means. Do so.
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@Termite & Debbie:
About “Chrislam”. Isn’t that also considered to be the new “emergent” church? Anytime I hear about “Chrislam” it makes me think of what will factor into the “beliefs” of the Anti Christ.
@Debbie: In Lebanon? I did not know that before. Isn’t it peculiar that it would be there? Considering what is happening now?
yes Hickster … you are so right.
There are a lot of things going on. Exceedingly fast and swift.
It’s as if we are always being propelled in a constant state of confusion.
That in itself, is not of God.
Somewhere in scriptures it states, that God is not the author of confusion.
Yet, our enemy and accuser is.
We must be on guard, and vigilant.
Like my dad use to say, “Don’t believe everything you hear, nor half of what you see”, and he is so right.
Just look at the mainstream media. It is corrupted to it’s core. False accusations, slander, incitement of racism, stirring up discontent, greed, and envy among the masses. It’s all built on darkness, and in darkness.
Yet the mainstream media sits up on it’s high horse as if they are “gods”, and us little peeps down here are treated as clueless idiots in their eyes.
They step on us, ridicule us, and call us out of our name. They shove everything that is abominable into our faces and try to make us chew it up and digest it as if it’s manna from heaven. Yet they chastise us when and if we speak up and out against them. I’m not alone in these feelings.
One day it will all be revealed. May God have mercy on those who refused to listen and take notice of all the pain and sorrow they have caused.
thanks “Xavier” …. smiles
……. “I’m not alone in these feelings.”
For certain you are not alone in those feelings. I notice it multiplied many times over on this and other similar conservative sites.
That’s the consolation of it all. God knows the whole story. On everything! From the beginning to the end, and then on.
Likewise; the Spiritual Journey that each one of us in on is unique. No two thumb prints, so to speak, are the same. Your dad, Yours, mine, theirs, the others. But God knows.
I don’t think I can buy the linguistics argument. Father and [only begotten] Son are not far flung concepts. Fundamental to Christian doctrine; fully man and God.
The bible doesn’t expect the reader to understand the Trinity {the deep things belong to God} [sic].. or the deity of Christ: Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
that’s central and non-negotiable..
also the simple concepts of Father and Son are no more/less difficult to comprehend in other languages..
but regardless, thing about the gospel of Christ, the more it is hammered on.. the stronger it gets
the more an enemy tries to destroy it, the stronger it flourishes.
the more that liars try to corrupt it, the stronger in beauty and Truth it remains..
maranatha!
@DanlBoone:
“the more an enemy tries to destroy it, the stronger it flourishes.”
####################################################
A case in point about that very thing. Recently was reading about the Malaysians. How the Christian converts there are harassed, or sent to the “Islamic Purification Centers”.
…In Maylasia the government calls those centers “retreat centers” yet they are, oddly for a retreat center, the buildings are surrounded by fence topped with razor wiring….
….also important to note is that in Malaysia, the citizens have to have their religious status recorded on their ID cards. They can not “legally” convert to Christianity. If you have ANY thing other than “muslim” on there, than the person is sent to the “retreat centers”.
Hi Hickster,
strange world sometimes..
(He 11:13-14)
nothing new.
Hickster,
as you know,
we got it good in America.. but I like the shadows of relative prophecies we’ve been discussing, a famine of the Word is approaching.. it’s an odd paradox that comes through our slothful stewardship of such wealthy abundance of freedom and knowledge of the Word.
And, I don’t really mean evangelizing so much.. actually I don’t see ‘the great commission’ so-called as an exhortation to the Church; it was to Israel.. but that’s a theological discussion of its own..
I only said it to preface: that by slothful stewardship.. I don’t mean in a corporate sense so much as an individual sense.. knowing what we believe and why.
Living epistles, transparent.. no pretense of piety or religion.. refusing ritual and ceremony -religiosity- stating what and why clearly without equivocation or indictment, and leaving it at that.
The world has heard the gospel.
Hello DanlBoone:
“Living epistles, transparent.. no pretense of piety or religion.. refusing ritual and ceremony -religiosity- stating what and why clearly without equivocation or indictment, and leaving it at that.”
=======================================================
Then are you encouraging me NOT to place any bible references online here? If so, then all I can respond to that is what a teacher of an evangelism class said. He said that those who have heard the Gospel. Those who are “churched” many times are the one’s with the most blocked heart toward the gospels since they (we, them, whoever of the churched) think they already “know it all”. That there is no more learning to be had. They (we, them, etc.) already think that since we sit in a pew regularly or have read the scriptures that we know it all. Which isn’t true.
Some time ago, there was discussion amongst co-workers whether people ought to discuss their beliefs or not. At that time I had said I don’t think so. It is a personal walk. Then as time went by & I realize moreso the encroaching of the Muzz and the delusion of the “church” in general, than I felt it was time to start having a voice on it.